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1 talking in the '90s, I don't think he was there.
2 I -- there's that description. I think that this,
3 what you were talking about is a later version.
4 TODD BLANCHE: Yeah. And --
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Does that -- is that?
6 TODD BLANCHE: No. I understand that and
7 I do want to talk -- I'm not --
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So it's just I'm -- I
9 think you need to separate the periods of time --
10 TODD BLANCHE: Sure.
11 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: -- because it --
12 this -- one of the things that was definitely missing
13 in my trial, and definitely missing from the
14 narrative, is this notion, this, everything happened
15 and he was always but -- no. I don't -- I don't
16 believe that to be true.
17 TODD BLANCHE: So I mean, that --
18 that's -- that's fine. And I do want to talk about
19 that. I'm not I'm not pushing that away. I'm
20 just putting it aside for a moment.
21 What Mr. Epstein did and -- and, frankly,
22 what -- what you did, or are accused of doing, is one
23 thing that I -- that we'll talk about, but what
24 right now what I want to understand is -- is whether
25 one of the ways that Mr. Epstein befriended his
1 and -- and someone who's underage.
2 But even with somebody who's an adult, did
3 you know Mr. Epstein to encourage folks to do that,
4 whether it's a client or somebody else?
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So with a -- with a --
6 I certainly witnessed him. So if you were staying
7 with him and you had a massage that -- he would often
8 travel with a masseuse. He would say, hey, would you
9 like a massage? And he did do that, yes.
10 TODD BLANCHE: But would you or him or
11 anybody else follow up with the masseuse afterwards,
12 to find out if there was any inappropriate sexual
13 contact?
14 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never did, no.
15 TODD BLANCHE: So meaning -- and then
16 coming back to the blackmail issue.
17 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Oh, yeah.
18 TODD BLANCHE: There's nothing wrong with
19 getting a massage, Of course not. Especially, you
20 know, especially if somebody's obviously an adult, a
21 masseuse. There's -- I'm not quibbling with that.
22 But my question is that there's a lot of
23 accusations that -- that one of the way Mr. Maxwell,
24 I'm sorry, Mr. Epstein was successful, was -- was
25 through this idea of blackmail.
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1 clients or or took care of them, or some would say
2 blackmail them, was by encouraging them to have -- to
3 interact with -- with women, underage or not.
4 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think in the
5 '90s, he may have encouraged them, but these were
6 people who were in their 20s or 30s.
7 TODD BLANCHE: So so. Understand that.
8 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: May have so he
9 would have a masseuse, right? And he did, male and
10 female, by the way, in the '90s, that's never been
11 discussed. Both in yoga and everything, there were
12 men as well as women.
13 And so if he would travel, and I can show
14 them to you, I highlighted them on the flight record,
15 so you could see that there really were men that were
16 also there. He would say, would you like to do yoga
17 with Tito? Or would you like a massage with this
18 one? But they would be in their late 20s and
19 professional masseuses.
20 TODD BLANCHE: So --
21 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: So I think there's a
22 distinction.
23 TODD BLANCHE: And I want to talk about
24 actual individuals here. But -- and I understand the
25 distinction between somebody who's an adult and --
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1 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: I never --
2 TODD BLANCHE: And yes, young -- young
3 women and -- and is a crime. Children are is a
4 crime.
5 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Absolutely.
6 TODD BLANCHE: But even women over the age
7 of 18, if -- if Mr. Epstein encouraged these men or
8 whomever to get massages and have inappropriate
9 sexual contact with the masseuses, that's -- that's a
10 separate issue. Maybe -- maybe slightly nuanced, but
11 did you ever know him to do that?
12 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: No. I never did
13 absolutely myself. I never heard him ask someone. I
14 never -- I never heard that. I never no one in
15 the entire time I was with him or friends with him,
16 or had anyone, no one ever reported to me or came to
17 me and said that anything inappropriate happened or
18 was upset by -- I never saw a tear. I never saw ever
19 any of that.
20 TODD BLANCHE: And when you say, "No one
21 reported to me," meaning like the masseuses --
22 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
23 TODD BLANCHE: -- or any of the house
24 staff --
25 GHISLAINE MAXWELL: Never.
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