020.pdf

Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 1 of 24
1
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
------------------------------x
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, New York, N.Y.
v. 19 Cr. 490(RMB)
JEFFREY EPSTEIN,
Defendant.
------------------------------x Conference
July 8, 2019
1:20 p.m.
Before:
HON. HENRY B. PITMAN,
Magistrate Judge
APPEARANCES
GEOFFREY S. BERMAN
United States Attorney for the
Southern District of New York
BY: ALEXANDER ROSSMILLER
ALISON J. MOE
MAURENE R. COMEY
Assistant United States Attorneys
STEPTOE & JOHNSON, LLP
Attorneys for Defendant
BY: REID H. WEINGARTEN
MARTIN G. WEINBERG
Attorney for Defendant
MARC FERNICH
Attorney for Defendant
Also Present:
Special Agent Amanda Young, FBI
Detective Paul Byrne, NYPD
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 2 of 24
2
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
(Case called)
THE DEPUTY CLERK: Counsel, please state your name for
the record.
MR. ROSSMILLER: Good afternoon, your Honor. For the
government, Alex Rossmiller, Alison Moe, and Maurene Comey.
With us are Special Agent Amanda Young of the F.B.I. and
Detective Paul Byrne, NYPD task force officer.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. WEINGARTEN: Good afternoon, your Honor. For
Jeffrey Epstein, Reid Weingarten from the law firm of Steptoe &
Johnson.
MR. WEINBERG: Good afternoon, your Honor. Martin
Weinberg. I'm an attorney from Boston, Massachusetts; and,
with your Honor's permission, I will be filing a pro hac vice
to represent Mr. Epstein.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. FERNICH: Good afternoon, your Honor. Marc
Fernich, New York, New York, also for Mr. Epstein.
THE COURT: All right. I have spoken to Judge Berman.
The matter has been referred to me for the initial appearance,
arraignment, and bail.
Mr. Epstein, my name is Magistrate Judge Pitman. The
purpose of this proceeding is to inform you of certain rights
that you have, to inform you of the charges against you, to
consider whether counsel should be appointed for you, and to
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 3 of 24
3
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
decide under what conditions, if any, you should be released.
Can I have the date and time of arrest, please?
MR. ROSSMILLER: Yes, your Honor. The defendant was
arrested on Saturday, July 6, at approximately 5:30 p.m.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Epstein, you have the right to remain silent. You
are not required to make any statements. Even if you have made
any statements to the authorities, you need not make any
further statements. Anything you do say can be used against
you.
You have the right to be released, either
conditionally or unconditionally, pending trial unless I find
that there are no conditions or combination of conditions that
would reasonably assure your presence in court and the safety
of the community.
You have the right to be represented by counsel during
all court proceedings, including this one, and during all
questioning by the authorities. If you cannot afford an
attorney, I will appoint one to represent you.
It is my understanding that you are being represented
by retained counsel. I want to advise you that the right to
the appointment of counsel is an ongoing right that you possess
throughout these proceedings. If at any time you are unable to
continue with retained counsel for financial reasons, you can
apply to the court at any time for the appointment of counsel.
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 4 of 24
4
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
Do you understand that?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Epstein, you are charged in an
indictment in two counts.
Count One charges you with a sex trafficking
conspiracy in violation of Title 18 United States Code § 371.
Count Two charges with you with the substantive
offense of sex trafficking in violation of Title 18 United
States Code § 1591.
Mr. Weingarten, are you going to be lead counsel here
today?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Weingarten, have you received a copy
of the indictment?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Have you reviewed it with your client?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you waive its reading?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Epstein, how do you plead?
THE DEFENDANT: Not guilty, your Honor.
THE COURT: Because the defendant has been indicted,
there will be no preliminary hearing, and that takes us to the
question of bail. In that regard, I have received the Pretrial
Services report. I have also received a letter from the
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 5 of 24
5
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
government dated July 8, 2019.
I take it all counsel have the same documents?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: I will hear from the government first, and
then I will hear from defense counsel.
MR. ROSSMILLER: Yes, your Honor.
The government intends to seek detention, and I am
happy to explain the reasons why. Would the court prefer that
I speak from the table or from the podium?
THE COURT: Whatever your pleasure is.
MR. ROSSMILLER: Your Honor, the defendant poses an
extraordinary risk of flight and danger presented by him.
Given the charges and the characteristics of the defendant, he
simply cannot reasonably be expected to appear in court if he
is granted bail. Accordingly, the government joins the
recommendation of Pretrial Services that the defendant be
detained pending trial for a number of reasons.
Starting with the conduct alleged, the defendant is
charged with trafficking minors for sex acts, as the court
explained, in violation of 18 United States Code § 591, and is
charged with a count of conspiracy to traffic minors for sex
acts in violation of 18 U.S.C. 371.
In particular, the indictment charges that the
defendant engaged in a years-long scheme to sexually abuse
underage girls, paying minor girls to themselves be abused, and
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 6 of 24
6
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
also paying certain victims to recruit other girls to be
subject to the defendant's sexual abuse.
The indictment alleges that the defendant undertook
this conduct at at least two locations, including his mansion
in Manhattan and his estate in Palm Beach, Florida. In both
locations, victims were initially recruited to provide massages
to the defendant, which would be performed nude or partially
nude, would become increasingly sexual in nature, and would
typically include one or more sex acts, including contact with
the victims' genitals. These victims, who were often
particularly vulnerable, were as young as 14, and the defendant
knew he was abusing underage girls. The indictment further
alleges that the defendant perpetrated these crimes by working
with others, including employees and associates who facilitated
these abusive encounters.
Regarding the defendant himself, your Honor, he is
extraordinarily wealthy, mobile, and unattached to the Southern
District of New York. He maintains at least six residences in
the United States and abroad, including the ownership of a
private island in the U.S. Virgin Islands and a residence in
Paris, France. Among other things, the defendant owns two
private jets and routinely uses them to travel abroad. He is a
man of nearly infinite means, your Honor; and, as set forth in
our submission, he has tremendous incentives to use those means
to flee prosecution.
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 7 of 24
7
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
The government notes as an initial matter that this is
a presumption case because sex trafficking is charged; and,
moreover, each of the four factors to be considered in the
detention analysis strongly militates towards pretrial
detention.
So starting with the nature and seriousness of the
offense, as previously discussed, the nature and circumstances
of the crime are the most serious crime that this court sees.
The defendant is alleged to have spent years sexually abusing
minors in multiple locations and with dozens of victims.
The seriousness of the charge is also reflected in the
potential penalties, which include up to 45 combined years of
incarceration on Counts One and Two, and the likelihood of a
substantial period of incarceration is supported by the fact
that the government's evidence is strong. There are multiple
individual identified victims in the indictment, numerous
specified overt acts, and dozens of overall victims alleged.
In order to protect the privacy of the victims, your
Honor, I'm not going to go into detail about particular
victims, but we can say that information provided by victims
has been detailed, it has been credible, and it has been
corroborated by other witnesses and contemporaneous documents
and records, including from a recent search of the defendant's
Manhattan mansion, as I will discuss further in a moment.
Separately, your Honor, in just the last 36 hours,
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 8 of 24
8
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
that is, post charge, we have been contacted by multiple
attorneys and several additional individuals who have
identified themselves as victims and are interested in speaking
with the government, none of whom the government has previously
spoken with.
Your Honor, the defendant is 66 years old. He is
charged with appalling crimes, and those charges are supported
by significant evidence, including victim and witness testimony
and damning record evidence. He faces the very real prospect
of spending the rest of his life in prison. He has every
motivation in the world to flee, and he has the means to do it.
And I will note for the court that this is a case
where the government has really put its money where its mouth
is on the risk of flight. This district took extraordinary
efforts to maintain the covert status of its investigation for
many months due to the risk of flight of the defendant -- not a
single media report, not a single public statement, no appeals
for victims to come forward because of precisely the flight
risks we are discussing now.
Turning to the characteristics of the defendant, your
Honor, some individuals who face significant charges lack the
means to flee. Not this defendant. As set forth in the
government's submission, in the defendant's most recent sex
offender registration, he lists six residences worth tens or
hundreds of millions of dollars, including a residence abroad.
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 9 of 24
9
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
The defendant has refused to answer any questions
about his income or assets for the Pretrial Services report, so
the scope of his wealth and his assets remains entirely
concealed to the government and to the court. But the
defendant certainly has access to endless means to flee,
including two private jets. He has no meaningful family ties,
and any argument that his properties would keep him in the
United States ignores his ability to simply leave those
properties behind in favor of moving beyond the reach of U.S.
authorities to live off his extensive wealth abroad, extensive
wealth, I should add, that the court doesn't even have any
accounting of. He travels abroad extensively, has a residence
in France, and all of those factors further contribute to the
risk of flight.
With respect to danger and obstruction, again, this is
a presumption case, and not only is the defendant charged with
the sexual abuse of minors, he has previously pled guilty to
solicitation of an underage girl. This court knows that
defendants are routinely detained in this district when facing
such charges and that this is not an unusual position for the
government to take.
It is further concerning that there are credible
allegations from the prior investigation that the defendant or
his agents engaged in witness tampering and harassment, and in
fact there is evidence that he was contemplating pleading
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 10 of 24
10
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
guilty to that kind of offense in Florida. Those allegations
include verbal harassment, evasion of legal process, and
forcing off the road the father of an individual relevant to
that investigation.
THE COURT: Can you elaborate on that last point about
forcing somebody off the road?
MR. ROSSMILLER: Your Honor, what we have is the
record evidence from an underlying civil dispute in Florida
that discusses this incident and discusses it in the context of
a potential plea of the defendant to obstruction or harassment
charges. The government sets before this court that if the
defendant was willing to undertake such measure simply as a
result of an investigation, the potential for dangerous and
obstructive activity in an indicted case is alarming and very
real.
Despite having been previously convicted of a sex
offense involving an underage victim and being a registered sex
offender, the defendant has continued to maintain a vast trove
of lewd photography of young-looking women or girls at his
mansion. Your Honor, pursuant to judicially authorized
warrants, law enforcement agents searched his home on Saturday
and found at least hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of sexually
suggestive photographs of nude females, many of whom appear to
be underage.
I also want to note that the search revealed specific
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 11 of 24
11
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
evidence from his home consistent with victim accounts. Even
the room where the abuse occurred, your Honor, the massage
room, was still set up in the same way it was 15 years ago,
with a massage table and sex paraphernalia.
And with respect to the photographs --
THE COURT: When you say the evidence was consistent
with victim accounts, is it limited to the massage table and
massage room or is there something else?
MR. ROSSMILLER: Descriptions of the massage room and
the massage table, that's correct, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. All right.
MR. ROSSMILLER: With respect to the photographs, your
Honor, some of those were found in a locked safe which also
held electronic disks with labels that included the words
"Young Miscellaneous Nudes 1" and "Girl Pics Nude."
Your Honor, this is not an individual who has left his
past behind. He is a continuing danger to the community and an
extraordinary risk of flight and, for those reasons, the
government joins the pretrial recommendation that the defendant
be detained pending trial.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Mr. Weingarten.
MR. WEINGARTEN: Thank you, your Honor. I will use
the podium, if that's okay.
THE COURT: That's fine.
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 12 of 24
12
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
MR. WEINGARTEN: So your Honor, I would like to start
by providing some context, and then I'm going to make a
suggestion as to how we proceed.
The beginning here is 2005 in Florida. That's when an
allegation was received by the local police that Mr. Epstein
was engaged in sexual conduct for money, prostitution.
Thereafter, there was a very sophisticated three-year
investigation by law enforcement, including locals and feds,
into Mr. Epstein's conduct. Numerous girls were interviewed,
employees were interviewed, and it is fair to say that a
significant segment of the law enforcement community in Florida
thought what we had in hand was simple prostitution. There was
no coercion. There were no threats. There was no violence.
And it is also fair to say that a significant portion of the
law enforcement community in Florida believed that a local
misdemeanor was the appropriate sanction.
Now, it is also --
THE COURT: Did you represent Mr. Epstein in the
Florida investigation?
MR. WEINGARTEN: No, but I'm familiar with the
records.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINGARTEN: It is also true that there was a
contrary view largely taken by the feds, and what ensued was a
complex set of discussions and negotiations and finally an
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 13 of 24
13
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
agreement, an agreement that was consummated and agreed to all
the way up to main justice at a very, very high level.
The agreement involved a plea in state court to
soliciting an underaged girl, which would require registration,
compensation paid to alleged victims, and an NPA from the feds,
in other words, a declination by the federal government, an
agreement that was approved all the way up in main justice and
it sure seemed like a global solution at the time to everyone
involved, including my client.
What happened since then? Mr. Epstein continued a
life of success, generosity, creativity and, more important, a
law-abiding life from 2008 forward. How do we know? Because
when you are in registration the way he is, every single night
his whereabouts are known. There is constant reporting,
constant monitoring, and absolutely, to our knowledge, no
complaints by anybody from that moment forward about his
conduct until we have arrived in court here.
Now, what has happened in court from that moment?
There have been lawsuits, many of them ludicrous, dismissed out
of hand. But when something like this happens, a lot of stuff
comes out of the woodwork, and there were lawsuits that
Mr. Epstein settled also in the normal course.
There was one particular litigation that leads to this
occasion, and that is, under the Crime Victims Rights Act, that
act simply says that victims have a right to be consulted by
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 14 of 24
14
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
the United States, and there are alleged victims in this case
who complain that they were not, and there has been extensive
litigation in the Southern District of Florida before
Judge Marra on that very subject. In fact, the judge concluded
that the prosecutors from the Southern District of Florida did
not adequately notify some of the victims about the ongoing
discussions and the consummation of the deal and, in
particular, the NPA. The United States took the position that
they had no responsibility to do so, that they had treated the
victims properly, and that matter continues to this day.
The consequences of that matter are overwhelming,
because the judge suggested, I think three times, that the NPA,
the declination, could be voided. And we think about that for
a second. So a defendant negotiates what he thinks is a global
solution with the feds. He does his time --
THE COURT: Does the nonprosecution agreement in
Florida -- the nonprosecution agreements in the Southern
District routinely say they are limited to the Southern
District of New York.
MR. WEINGARTEN: Obviously --
THE COURT: Is there a similar provision in the
Florida agreement?
MR. WEINGARTEN: I don't want to misstate. It is not
before me. It is obviously going to be an important part of
the pretrial motions. What is for sure is that there was --
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 15 of 24
15
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
the negotiation with the Southern District included
negotiations with main justice. What's also true is the
investigation extended into the Southern District of New York
and elsewhere in terms of girls being interviewed.
So obviously your question is relevant and will be
part of the pretrial litigation for sure. But what matters
here and for now is there certainly was a belief that there was
a global solution based upon the facts on the ground.
THE COURT: Have you seen the Florida nonprosecution
agreement?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes.
THE COURT: And --
MR. WEINGARTEN: I don't have it before me. I don't
want to make a specific representation and not be completely
accurate.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Go ahead.
MR. WEINGARTEN: The consequences of this are huge in
that if in fact there is a negotiation with a defendant, the
defendant does his time, the defendant pays his victim, and the
defendant spends ten years on the registration list and
prosecutors don't adequately notify the victims, how in the
world can that deal be undone? Every prosecutor in the world
has to oppose that possibility. No defense attorney in their
right mind would negotiate a deal with that potential
consequence.
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 16 of 24
16
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
So this is a huge problem for the department and what
solution ensues, and I suggest the solution that ensued is this
indictment. To us, this indictment is essentially a do-over.
The allegations are from 2002 to 2005. This is old stuff.
This is ancient stuff. This is the very stuff that was
investigated by the feds in Florida, a sophisticated three-year
investigation. Two of the alleged victims in this indictment
are from Florida. The indictment here tracks the conduct that
was investigated in Florida back before the agreement was
reached. Obviously we need to get discovery to find out just
how inextricably linked the investigation back in Florida is
with what's going on here. We do know we are talking about
ancient conduct. We do know we are talking about facts that
are from 2002 to 2005, facts that were known to the United
States prosecutors before they entered into the NPA, the
declination. This is essentially a redo. That's how it feels
to us. And if we are correct, that should chill the blood of
every defense attorney who negotiates a deal with the United
States.
In addition, we have -- the central allegation here is
trafficking, and obviously it is useful and relevant to make
inquiry as to why the trafficking law was passed. It is to
cover abhorrent conduct, where young girls are kidnapped, they
are fooled, they are forced to come usually to unfamiliar
places, work in brothels where they service 15, 20 guys in a
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 17 of 24
17
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
day. They can't leave or else their families are threatened.
This is dreadful conduct.
I remember an occasion when the Attorney General Eric
Holder and I think Director Comey had a press conference
establishing this as a law enforcement priority. Every
sensible person in the world would think that this is the exact
right thing law enforcement should do.
This is not this case. There was no violence. There
was no coercion. There was no intimidation. There is no
deception. The bottom line, if you take a fair look at the
facts of this case as alleged and in the record, you may come
to the conclusion there was prostitution involved and maybe a
lot of it, but that doesn't mean that the person involved is a
pedophile, a rapist or, heaven knows, a trafficker. Just --
THE COURT: Well, if the women involved were under 18,
isn't that rape?
MR. WEINGARTEN: My understanding --
THE COURT: Legally they are incapable of consent, are
they not?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Well, it could be statutory rape.
But what I am talking about is trafficking and why the
statute was passed, and obviously the statute was passed to
protect women from the horrors that occur in such settings, and
that is light years removed to what happened in this case.
So what about bond? I would suggest that the
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 18 of 24
18
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
traditional issues that we look at, the issues involved, let's
start with that, we believe we have extremely powerful motions
relating to the government seeking two bites at the apple and
for due process reasons, double jeopardy reasons, we don't
think that will stand. We also think fundamentally what's at
issue here is not trafficking. That's not why the statute was
passed.
The risk to others, what we have here is at least ten
years post incarceration in the State of Florida of conduct
that has never been challenged by anyone until now. The
registration requirements are onerous. He is under constant
surveillance. Law enforcement knows, if they choose to look,
exactly where he is at any time.
The risk of flight, what is true is from the moment of
Judge Marra's litigation in the Southern District of Florida,
the defendant knew that there would be challenges to the NPA.
From 2013 on, there were representations made in court that
that challenge was ongoing, and the defendant never sought to
flee, never anticipated a time when he would flee, continued to
live his law-abiding life. So the risk of flight, I think, is
dramatically overstated in the government's presentation.
I think the traditional remedies that the court finds
appropriate in case after case -- a large cash bond; passport
relinquished; waiving extradition; a bracelet on; some form of
supervision that is adequate to guarantee his appearance, it
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 19 of 24
19
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
will be child's play to find that; bonds from other people,
surety bonds from other people.
Because we have not had an opportunity to see our
client until today and because we have just received the
government's submission, what we would like to do is have the
opportunity to sit down and put together a bail package, a
coherent bail package in writing and provide it to the court.
I would point out on the obstruction allegation --
THE COURT: Let me ask you this -- sorry to interrupt
you -- do you want to adjourn the detention hearing? Under the
statute, you have up to three days.
MR. WEINGARTEN: What I would like is to have until
the end of the week to provide something in writing, a specific
recommendation in writing.
THE COURT: So you want to adjourn a determination of
bail?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes.
THE COURT: Is there any objection to that from the
government? The defendant is detained in the interim under
3142(f).
MR. WEINGARTEN: Right.
MR. ROSSMILLER: Your Honor, we certainly don't object
if the defendant is consenting to detention with leave to make
a further application.
I think the government would like at least a brief
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 20 of 24
20
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
opportunity to respond to some of those points, to the extent
that the defense is arguing that Mr. Epstein should be granted
bail as a general matter and the court is going to consider
those arguments.
THE COURT: Well, the court always considers the
parties' arguments.
But let me just come back to Mr. Weingarten for a
minute. Mr. Weingarten, under the Bail Reform Act you are
entitled to a continuance of three days, which I guess would
take us to Thursday.
MR. WEINGARTEN: Right.
THE COURT: The other alternative, I guess, if you
want to de facto extend that three days is consent to detention
without prejudice.
MR. WEINGARTEN: We estimated that by Thursday we
could get you something in writing and then appear back before
you at your convenience.
THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to schedule it -- well,
I think Thursday's proceedings right now would be in front of
Judge Berman unless he wants to send it back to me for bail,
but do you want to put this down for detention hearing on
Thursday?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Can I make one point that I don't
want to forget that I think is extremely important?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 21 of 24
21
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
MR. WEINGARTEN: The last thing we did today was
refuse to answer questions. What we said at Pretrial is heaven
forbid we make a mistake, and in terms of assets, we wanted to
be precise. So there was no refusal. There was a request for
time to supplement. That was accepted. And that's part of the
reason we want to sit down and make sure we get our information
correct to provide to the court.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WEINGARTEN: Can I make one other point?
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. WEINGARTEN: In terms of the obstruction, I think
it is such a significant part of our argument that the conduct
at issue is ancient. It is from 2002 to 2005. So obviously if
the defendant is a threat to obstruct justice, the court needs
to take that into account. The allegations raised -- and I
just read them briefly because we just got the government's
letter -- relate to negotiations between the feds and the
defendant. Back when the Southern District of Florida was
attempting to find an appropriate remedy, there were
discussions going back and forth: Can we squeeze you into this
statute? And it didn't work, and it didn't work because there
is no factual basis. That is the reference to the alleged
obstruction. Not obstructive acts. Instead, the feds in
Florida agreed to the plea to the state offense because there
was no appropriate statute that covered conduct that was
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 22 of 24
22
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
proveable. That is the answer to the obstruction issue.
THE COURT: All right. So you want to adjourn the
detention hearing until Thursday?
MR. WEINGARTEN: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Is there any objection to that
from the government? I think under the statute he is entitled
to three days.
MR. ROSSMILLER: That is, of course, fine, your Honor.
I think we would like just a very brief opportunity to
respond to some of those arguments so that they don't sort of
hang with the court for three days unresponded to.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
MR. ROSSMILLER: Just very briefly, your Honor, I
think a lot of that discussion was entirely orthogonal to the
issues here.
But just very briefly, with respect to the charges
here, there is simply no force required for underage victims.
A grand jury has properly returned an indictment, and these are
fact issues that are being presented in large part.
Certainly the concept of child prostitution is,
frankly, offensive and not recognized in federal law. The idea
that children can consent to sex and be prostitutes is beyond
the realm of federal law which contemplates trafficking, which
is what has been charged here. Mr. Weingarten is free to argue
to a jury that trafficking minors was only statutory rape or
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 23 of 24
23
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
that those victims weren't treated as badly as the parade of
horribles he has in mind. But for now the question is whether
the defendant's attendance can be assured.
And with respect to the nonprosecution agreement --
THE COURT: I'm not sure I would refer to something as
only statutory rape. The use of the word "only" before
"statutory rape" I'm not sure sits well. But go ahead.
MR. ROSSMILLER: And I agree, your Honor.
With respect to the actual substance, the Southern
District of Florida has represented in public filings that the
nonprosecution agreement was limited to the Southern District
of Florida, and we can litigate that in a motion to dismiss,
but it is simply not relevant here.
With respect to the statute of limitations,
Mr. Weingarten says that the conduct is old. He did not say
that that it is beyond the statute of limitations because it is
not.
And, finally, it is not the same conduct. Some of the
conduct overlaps. Some of the conduct does not. And in
particular, one of the two counts of the indictment is
predicated exclusively on New York victims.
So for all of those reasons, we just ask the court to
consider those responses as it awaits the defendant's filings
later this week.
MR. WEINGARTEN: Can I just make one point to clarify?
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 20 Filed 07/16/19 Page 24 of 24
24
SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.
(212) 805-0300
j782epsC kjc
THE COURT: Go ahead.
MR. WEINGARTEN: On the statutory rape thing, I had a
senior moment. There is no statutory rape because there is no
penetration, and that is the answer to that question.
THE COURT: All right.
We will set this down for a detention hearing on
Thursday, July 11, for the continuation of the detention
hearing. Thursday, July 11, at 2 p.m.
The defendant is detained at least until the
continuation of the detention hearing pursuant to 18 United
States Code 3142(f).
I have been advised by Judge Berman that he wants to
see counsel right after these proceedings. Judge Berman's
courtroom is 17B. So counsel and Mr. Epstein should go to 17B.
All right. Anything else from the government?
MR. ROSSMILLER: Your Honor, ordinarily we would ask
to exclude speedy trial time, but I think because we are going
directly to Judge Berman, we have no such application.
THE COURT: Mr. Weingarten, anything else?
MR. WEINGARTEN: No, thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Weingarten, anything else?
MR. WEINGARTEN: No, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you all.
oOo